The Business of Fluoride-Free Toothpaste: Risewell

Ethan Peyton: Hey everybody and welcome to the Startups Savant podcast. I'm your host, Ethan, and this is a show about the stories, challenges and triumphs of fast scaling startups and the founders who run them. Our guest on the show today is Kori Estrada, co-founder of Risewell. Risewell is a natural toothpaste and mouth care, woo, let me try that again. Risewell is a natural toothpaste and mouth care product company and none of their products contain fluoride, which we will talk quite a bit about today. Kori's background is in finance, that's right, not in dental care or even product development. So, how did she get into the toothpaste? So, how did she get into the toothpaste business? We will get into that as well. Hey, listener, if you wanna help support the show, subscribe to the show. We wanna keep growing this podcast and every time you press that subscribe button, it gives us a big old boost. So thank you for supporting the team here at Startup Savant. We truly appreciate you. All right, let's get right down to business. Kori, welcome to the show. Glad to have you on board today.

Kori Estrada: 

Thank you so much, really excited to be here.

Ethan Peyton: I am stoked you're here as well, and I'm gonna let you do a much better job than I did by answering the question, what is Risewell?

Kori Estrada: Risewell is a premium clean oral care company that really started, which we can get into, I'm sure, in much more detail later, with the belief that oral care can be both wildly effective, but also safe enough to eat. Why that matters, I'm sure most people are thinking, who wants to eat toothpaste? Well, your gums are actually highly absorbent, so whether you like it or not, even if you're spitting out your toothpaste after you use it, a lot of it is being absorbed into your body twice a day. And so for us, we set out to create toothpaste that works as well as conventional toothpaste or better, but also is safe enough to eat, which means that it's safe enough for the entire family, including kids like mine that are not old enough to actually spit out toothpaste. So they are literally consuming it.

Ethan Peyton: Nice, and I think maybe you touched on this a little bit here, but what would you say that the problem that the products that you all put out is solving?

Kori Estrada: Yeah, so it's probably helpful to get into a little bit of the how we got into this. As you noted, my background is in finance. And so the idea of starting an oral care company was not something I had considered when I was in my teens or 20s for that matter. 

But it started when my husband, John and I, at the time we were going through IVF, we were looking to have our first child. And I had to go through the whole infertility process, which was extremely challenging. But when one goes through that journey, you wanna make sure you do it once if possible and not many times. It's also very expensive. It's in most cases not covered by insurance. And we wanted to make sure it was successful. And so we asked the doctor who sat us down and we're going through kind of all of everything that we should do, how do we make this successful? And he said, you know, obviously take the right medications, eat the right foods, but also make sure you're using the right products as well, because those can actually be endocrine disruptors. 

And that was something that I hadn't realized that things that go on my body or amusing around my body could actually be impactful to the process, which of course we both went down the rabbit hole of turning our entire apartment upside down and realizing a lot of the everyday products that we were using had harmful ingredients in them better alternatives, but the one area we really struggled with is within oral care. And why is that? At the time, this was probably six years ago, and essentially there were a few natural toothpastes on the market, but they essentially took out fluoride and didn't replace it with anything. So the challenge and really the problem that we set out to solve was how do we create a product that...

Ethan Peyton: Mm-hmm.

Kori Estrada: …that works just as well as conventional toothpaste. And the reason why that was also very top of mind is my brother, whom I'm very close with, he happens to be an amazing dentist. He's actually a practicing dentist in Boca Raton. At the time, he was a dentist in the Navy doing some very extreme cases. So he's had lots of different experiences. His point to us when we were looking to make the swap is natural toothpaste literally doesn't do anything. You might as well brush with water, was what he told us. Because with no effective ingredients in it…

Ethan Peyton: Wow.

Kori Estrada: …really all a natural toothpaste is doing if it doesn't have any effective ingredients in it is helping to remove the tartar, which you can do with water. So that was really how we got started on this journey was the problem was how do we create something that works as well as conventional toothpaste, products that a dentist like my brother could get behind and recommend to his patients, but also meet the threshold that both of us had, which was products that were safe enough to eat because since gums are absorbent, they should be safe enough to eat because we are literally absorbing them twice a day. And so that's really how we get started.

Ethan Peyton: That's a very specific path to take. I mean, obviously, like you mentioned, you were replacing products. Basically, you were scratching your own itch. And I think that lots of really great businesses are started with that. And now you mentioned that your product is essentially a natural product or a natural toothpaste and that there are other natural toothpastes, but then there are the traditional toothpastes. And when I think of the kind of natural toothpaste versus conventional, I think fluoride. So the conventional has fluoride and the natural does not. And based on what you've said, these natural toothpastes are removing fluoride and not replacing it with anything. And so what's the kind of difference between your toothpaste and the other natural toothpaste out there?

Kori Estrada: Great question. So also, I guess, just to add on to that, and that's completely accurate, we in sort of going really deep on trying to solve this problem many years ago, also realized it's actually not just about fluoride or not. That's obviously the most sort of well-known and controversial of topics, which I'm excited to get into. But also there are actually a host of other ingredients that exist in toothpaste. And shockingly, most people, and I think…

Ethan Peyton: Mm-hmm.

Kori Estrada: …certainly in the last six years since we first started looking at this issue, people are much more aware of the everyday products that they're using. I mean, Beyond Food with also Personal Care deodorant is really a big one, sunscreen and others. With most toothpaste, it's actually you find the ingredients on a box. So by the time you've thrown out your box, you're left with a tube and in most cases, it doesn't have the ingredients listed. So you're using this product twice a day. Most people have no idea what's in their toothpaste.

They probably know if there's fluoride or not. I think that's usually one that's well-known. But then in terms of other ingredients that we thought about and really cared about in sort of the creation of our products, what were things like SLS, which is a foaming agent. I think most people have that experience and there's a lot of foaming, that rabid dog look that comes with SLS, which actually SLS can lead to other things like dermatitis and sort of other kind of schlaffing of the mouth and other health issues because it's not actually, it's a harsh detergent. 

I mean, you find SLS and literally laundry detergent. It's not intended to be in your mouth. So that was something we wanted to avoid. Other ingredients like triclosan, which you've probably never heard of, but the FDA actually many years ago banned it in hand soap because they found it was causing cancer in lab rats. But for some reason we still have it in toothpaste, which is crazy.

It does help with gingivitis, but it also has other side effects that one would want to avoid it strongly, especially given some of the FDA not including in hand soap. So, I mean, I could go on with sort of all the things that are in toothpaste, but I think the biggest one is really, what are those key effective ingredients that really differentiate our products versus say conventional toothpaste and other natural products? And to kind of get right to the big one on fluoride.

Fluoride has been around for a long time. Essentially it was put in toothpaste in the fifties. It is a fertilizer byproduct and a nice place for it to go since you can't let it leach into the ground because it would have harmful effects is sell it to toothpaste companies and put it in toothpaste. It does actually harden the teeth. So your existing enamel that you had, it will help with cavity prevention. It's not a hundred percent. Even all the data that's out there. It's largely like 20 to 30% effective. So, you know, diet, genetics, there's other considerations that go into whether or not one gets cavities, but it is effective, but it does have side effects. And especially for people like myself at the time who's going through IVF, or if you're pregnant or with kids, there's a poison label on toothpaste. 

They do not want you eating toothpaste because fluoride and not in the largest of doses. If I had a pile of fluoride on my hand, for instance, that would be enough to potentially kill someone. So one does not want to be eating large amounts of fluoride. There's a very, very tiny percentage of fluoride that's in toothpaste, but still it is a known endocrine disruptor. If one looks at the data of fluoride, essentially it's been shown to populations that use fluoride versus populations that don't have actually lower IQs with populations that use fluoride. 

So I'm not anti-fluoride, and I don't think our company is either. For really extreme cases, I think it makes sense for people to topically use fluoride. The really exciting part of our company's development started when we found an alternative that was completely safe. And it's not just an alternative that works 50% as well as fluoride. It's one that's actually been shown to work just as well or…

Ethan Peyton: Wow.

Kori Estrada: …and this is sort of our, our key ingredient is called hydroxyapatite, which unfortunately doesn't sound supernatural, but it's actually 98% of our enamel is made out of hydroxyapatite 70% of our bones. So it's something that's really abundant in our bodies. Um, the cool story with hydroxyapatite is that it was invented in the, well, it's been around for awhile, but invented chemically that is in the seventies when astronauts were coming back from space and their enamel was actually weakening and they said, how do we help astronauts have, you know, build more of this enamel they have? So they figured out how to chemically manufacture it in the seventies. 

The Japanese, like they do with a lot of things, said, we're putting this in our toothpaste. And so the Japanese have been actually using this in their toothpaste since the seventies. So we have many, many years of data that shows its efficacy versus fluoride and also versus nothing. So we know that it works just as well or better than fluoride. And the cool quick science and then I'll stop because I know this is a long winded answer, is that it's essentially a crystal. So your enamel is made up of a bunch of crystals that are stacked together. And it's by using hydroxyapatite in our toothpaste, it's just adding more of the crystals to what exists on your enamel and attaches to them. So unlike fluoride that just hardens what you have, this actually adds more of what you have, which is also why it's great for sensitivity.

Ethan Peyton: Mm-hmm.

Kori Estrada: So anyone that has struggled with teeth sensitivity before sort of the bringing sort of hydroxy here, hydroxyapatite here, to the U S they would use something like Sensodyne, which essentially uses an ingredient that numbs your teeth. So it says, Oh, you have sensitivity. Let's just numb it and hope that you don't feel it. We take a different approach. We try to heal from the inside. And hydroxyapatite is a crystal. So it actually fills in the holes in your teeth that cause sensitivity and stops it from the source. So there's no numbing. It just actually sort of fixes it at the root of the problem. So it's really, really beneficial. And then we couple the hydroxyapatite also with other things like xylitol, which it's essentially a sugar alcohol and that has a host of other benefits as well, which I'm happy to get into, but I know that was a lot, so I'll stop there.

Ethan Peyton: No, that's all good. I'm glad to kind of get into the depths of this. And just so that I make sure I understand correctly, what we've got is conventional toothpaste that uses fluoride as the kind of, we'll call it like maybe the active ingredient. And then we've got Risewell that uses hydroxyapatite, something like that, as the active ingredient. And then other natural toothpaste maybe have…

Kori Estrada: You nailed it.

Ethan Peyton: …removed the fluoride but not replaced it with anything? Is that pretty close to accurate? Gotcha.

Kori Estrada: That's correct. So yeah, so especially at the time, I mean, we, six years ago, I mean, the options on the market were largely, I'm sure people can think of Toms and others where they took out the fluoride. And in some cases, crazy enough, were actually not even that clean otherwise, meaning they had things like the SLS, the foaming agents and other ingredients, maybe natural flavors, which I'm sure you heard before are not actually natural. Nobody knows what they are. So...

Ethan Peyton: Mm-hmm.

Kori Estrada: That was really the worst of all worlds is where you remove the effective thing, you actually keep some of the bad ingredients, and you're largely left with a flavored paste that does nothing more but foam.

Ethan Peyton: Gotcha. So let's get into fluoride specifically. And I ask this not in a scientific podcast kind of way. Obviously I am not a scientist. I've never claimed to be anybody who thinks I am is just plain wrong. But kind of the view of fluoride and how consumers might see it. And it's really become a big battleground topic because some say it's good.

Some say it's bad. Some say the government puts it in our water so that we don't get out of line. But based on the research that you have done, what's the kind of like the real talk and what out there is just plain nonsense?

Kori Estrada: Yeah, I think that the number one thing I'd say is that fluoride, it is effective. Again, it's not a hundred percent effective. And I think that's important for everyone to understand when it comes to oral health, that it's really a host of factors. I mean, genetics is one of them. Some of us are actually just unfortunately genetically predisposed to get cavities more likely than others. A diet is a big part of it. If we all had a perfect diet and let's also say good genetics, we would never have cavities and we never need to use toothpaste.

So unfortunately, I drink coffee, I like a glass of red wine every now and then. All of these things are not great for your teeth. And so as a result, you should do other things like brush and use things like fluoride or hydroxyapatite. So fluoride does have its benefits. The benefits essentially have been shown when it is topically applied to teeth. 

So where I come out is I try to avoid fluoride in water and that's a personal decision and because there's really no benefits to drinking water and also fluoride very clearly at high doses, meaning if you're consuming too much of it, there are clear negatives. For instance, if you've ever seen with children, if they have too much fluoride in their diet or through toothpaste, they get something called fluorosis, which is essentially white spots on your teeth. I actually have two of them on my teeth. I must have had too much fluoride as a kid. So there are, and then obviously at even higher doses, you can have bone issues. 

So it's something if I can't avoid, I will. So I choose to do that when it comes to water consumption. Because we found this great alternative, which there are negatives with hydroxyapatite. And the only negative is that it's more expensive than fluoride. It's not a fertilizer byproduct. It's not given away from the industry to be put in our products. So it is many, many times more expensive to put in toothpaste than fluoride is. So that is mostly why our products are more expensive than conventional toothpaste.

And they're all decisions I think that families have to make. So that's why we don't come out and we're not very sort of anti-fluoride unequivocally. I think in some cases it could make sense, especially for extreme cases where one might wanna use actually both hydroxyapatite and fluoride. But for the vast majority of people, the best option is hydroxyapatite because it works just as well as fluoride without any safety issues. I can give it to my son, he can eat the whole tube and I don't have to call poison control, which is a really nice thing as a parent.

Ethan Peyton: Yeah, he's just gonna have a little tummy ache, maybe.

Kori Estrada: No, he'll actually, trust me, it's happened before. Totally fine, completely okay.

Ethan Peyton: Oh, all right. Maybe just a slightly more expensive snack then. How about that? All right, so we're gonna get a little bit into the kind of the business side and the marketing side and branding a little bit later, but I wanna kind of get the, since we're talking about fluoride and the kind of open opinions about that, you know, that can be so easily found online, I wanna ask you, how do you cut through the noise…

Kori Estrada: Yes, that is accurate. Yes.

Ethan Peyton: …of the kind of anti-fluoride movement and the anti-anti-fluoride movement to, you know, to essentially have your product stand on its own instead of just being kind of another weapon to use in this battle of fluoride or not.

Kori Estrada: Yeah, it's a great question. And I think for us, and this was really important and also really differentiated when we started the business is that if you actually looked at a lot of the natural toothpaste that were on the market six years ago, and it's probably true today, they actually were more about being natural and crunchy in sort of the feeling that it evoked from consumers as opposed to being grounded in science. And our company, first and foremost, we took the approach that, I mean, it's why my brother is a co-founder. We have a team of people on our scientific panel, essentially a group of doctors and dentists and scientists who have helped us formulate every single product that we've come up with, that this is not just about being quote unquote natural. 

Of course, I come with the absolute sort of importance to me that everything has to be safe enough to eat because I have a family of with little kids and myself, and that was sort of our bar of creating products. But first and foremost, we try to ground everything we do in science. And I think that was a very new approach for a natural product. Because a lot of times, unfortunately you had to sacrifice efficiency for being natural. And we said, we will not create a product or a company unless we can create something that is just as effective as conventional products, but also safe enough to eat. 

So both of those things were just as important for us. So I think that that's really sort of having that foundation was really differentiated because one had to sift through all the science out there. And that's actually how we found our star ingredient hydroxyapatite was looking through what exists in the market. Where do we have lots of science and evidence that it actually works versus fluoride? Because we can't give a product to dentists and have them recommend it to their patients because this is not a natural deodorant where if it doesn't work, maybe you'll be a little bit sweaty and no big deal. It's dentists recommending it to people who might have serious teeth issues. 

And for them, why would they say use something besides fluoride, sort of this known ingredient that's been around for a long time? We had to actually present them and we do this with the dentists we work with. We've got a stack of scientific studies that have been done over the last 50 years showing to them that look, here's all of the evidence from years of populations that use fluoride and those that didn't and ones that use hydroxyapatite and those that didn't. And here's where millions of people have sort of shaken out. And so that was really like an important differentiator for our company when we founded.

Ethan Peyton: Let's talk a little bit about the kind of better-for-you market. You know, these products that are generally a little bit more expensive, and they are kind of bucking the trend of, these are the ingredients that we've always bought, and we're going to skip those because maybe they are harmful in some way. So let's use these products with quote-unquote better ingredients. Can you tell us a little bit about that market and maybe kind of the mindset of the customer that goes into that market.

Kori Estrada: Yeah. So it's, it's also a great question because I think it's something that it's been really fascinating to see over the years since we started the company, how much that has changed in a positive direction. I think that for hopefully a long time, but the last decade or so, I think there's been, it's first started with a focus on food and then you saw a shift with, you know, I think deodorant is really kind of one of the big first examples on the personal care side where people said, wait, what's in my product? 

And for the first time, actually looking at that box before they throw it out and reading the ingredients and Googling them, and there's great apps that I used, I remember six years ago, I think it was called Think Dirty where I remember scanning all of my products and they had scores for whether or not it was good or bad. So that consumer, I think has gotten much smarter over the years, recognizing that it's not just about the food that you're putting in your body. Of course, I always say to people too that,

You know, one doesn't want to be too obsessive because you can go as extreme with mattresses and carpets and air purifiers and cleaners and personal care products that, you know, first and foremost, food is the most important thing because that's literally going into your body. And then number two is oral care because it's also going into your body, not in the same ways that food is, but because it's being absorbed like sublingual medication where it goes under your tongue, it quickly gets into your system that oral care products being number two. 

Number three, personal care products, because your skin is a much better barrier than your gums are, but still not perfect. So if it's going on your skin, some small percentage is being absorbed. And then obviously sort of the world around you, the carpets, the sprays and house cleaners, you're not putting that right on your skin, but breathing it in and touching it at times.

So for that consumer, I think that we've really resonated because we stick to both those two important tenants that I think a lot of natural companies forget, is they either choose being natural or the efficacy and then kind of abandoning being natural. We say, we're not gonna do anything unless we can do both. And I think people really get that. And I think as a person with a finance background, both John and I, John being the other co-founder, he also has a background in finance and we've looked at many hundreds of businesses, thousands of businesses over the years. And we knew that we wouldn't start a business unless we could give consumers everything that we would want. I mean, that's exactly how we started the business.

Ethan Peyton: So these customers that are buying these better for you products, how do you feel that they differ in kind of the behaviors, buying behaviors, whatever you want to say, as compared to consumers that more regularly purchase the kind of conventional products?

Kori Estrada: Yeah. So the major difference is that the buyer of conventional products is usually, it's more about the marketing than anything else. And I will say, um, my background, John's background, my brother's background, would none of us are marketers. And even to this day, I happen to love our packaging and I love the bright orange. It's my favorite, favorite color. That's how we get started with that. But we have our experience and we're not coming from a place of trying to sell another me too product in a fancier package. And I think that's really different because if you look at sort of the conventional market, for instance, even if you look at sort of toothpaste, go into any drug store and you go to the toothpaste aisle, it's largely blues, whites, sparklies, all the boxes look the same. 

I don't know how you're actually choosing one versus the other. Maybe it's because it's on sale, maybe because it's really sparkly versus less sparkly. But at the end of the day, it's sort of a marketing decision for the conventional products. For us and for a buyer who's more, let's say, sort of discerning about ingredients, first and foremost, you care that they are not using any ingredients that are not okay to you.

And the amount of questions and engagement that we get from our consumers is really amazing. I mean, with, we get questions every day. It's like, you know, where is this essential oil coming from and where is this ingredient coming from? And we can answer all of those questions because we care about every single ingredient and where it's sourced and how it's sourced, we manufacture in the U S and it's like, we're just as crazy as our consumers are. And so it's okay. But our, the selling point is not the marketing.

Ethan Peyton: The selling point is not the marketing. So then is the selling point that kind of building the relationship with that customer that says we know what you care about and we are going to position this front and center that we are giving you what you care about because we care about those things as well. Is that the kind of the marketing quote unquote that goes into this or is it something different?

Kori Estrada: Yeah. And you're right. I mean, that is its own marketing. And it's, it's absolutely what I think you're alluding to, which is trust, right? It's trust that families or individuals can buy our products and know that we're using the highest quality ingredients and also not sacrificing efficacy.

Ethan Peyton: So I think that you mentioned something earlier about an app that you use to scan the products that kind of gave you the information and the insight to allow you to make those better for you, that is right for your buying decision. And it really seems to me like those things are becoming more and more common and obviously they're becoming more robust and easier to use over the years. 

And I think that has kind of, I'm not gonna say correlation equals causation one way or the other on this, but it really feels like that has gone with a trend to that more people are kind of looking into the ingredients of things, of just like what you said, foods and personal care products. And this is a trend that feels like it's grown over the past several years and become a little bit more mainstream. First off, do you see that I mean, are you seeing the same thing I'm seeing or do you think that there's always been a subset of people out there that are buying these better for you products?

Kori Estrada: Oh, it's absolutely growing. I mean, I can, I say that sort of unequivocally from also an investors perspective as well, I mean, we see that in the trends happening with the companies that we look at. I mean, there's a whole, you know, I could sort of talk about this for a long time, but I think that the health and wellness trend is here to stay. And I think that there's a recognition that health and wellness, it's not just about eating the right foods or being on the right diet, but it's also.

It's well-being mentally, it's making sure you're using the right personal care products, the right household products that, you know, it's, it involves so much more than just being on the right diet or just doing exercise. And I think people recognize that. And that there are a lot of these apps. Like I mentioned, the Think Dirty app was really helpful, helpful for me, but also there's another one called EWG, which essentially just dissects all the ingredients in any product and it ranks each of the ingredients. 

And so if I just take an average of sort of the, the score of each of the ingredients and it kind of rank it based on like how much bad stuff is in it versus good stuff. Um, and so that's also been a really helpful tool as well, but it's become a lot easier for people to do that. But frankly, like the more you do this and, you know, I've been in this now a while kind of being obsessive about ingredients, you just recognize, um, you know, I can look at any product and I usually just for fun, go down toothpaste aisles and

if I'm in this country or a different country to see what people are using. And I'm shocked that you still find some of these bad ingredients, but honestly, I have friends that are really deep into the health and wellness world and they just haven't gotten to their toothpaste yet. And so I think for some people, this will be sort of an education process. And you can probably hear it with the passion in my voice and talking about this topic that I think oral care was really left, uh, on the sidelines for a long time is something that…

Ethan Peyton: Mm-hmm.

Kori Estrada: …there were these two big brands, which I won't mention that have existed for a really long time. And I don't think that people really thought about it because they threw out the box and were just using their tube, what's in their toothpaste? And why does that matter? But it takes a bit of education for people to realize your gums are absorbent, there's some really harmful stuff that's in your toothpaste. Oh, and wait, there's actually really safe alternatives that work just as well as fluoride that we can be using.

Ethan Peyton: So if these trends are continuing and they're going to continue growing, when do you think that the large brands are going to kind of jump onto this train of, hey, maybe we can come out with a sub-brand of, I'm not gonna use any of the toothpaste brand names, but let's call it Toothpaste A Super Duper Pro when are they gonna come out with a super duper pro version of their existing product that is this healthier for you, better ingredients type of position, or do they just not have the incentive to do that?

Kori Estrada: Sadly, there's not a great incentive. And I can also say this is sort of an investor that you're incentivized on Wall Street as a public company to maximize profits for shareholders. And that's a completely rational incentive for companies. Unfortunately, for some companies, not all of course, that comes with sacrificing the type of ingredients that you're using. I mean, it's...

it would have been a lot easier and cheaper for us to use fluoride in our products. But of course that would be stand in stark contrast to what we stand for in our mission. But it would save a lot of money to do that. And so I always get the question, why don't other companies use hydroxyapatite? Like, why haven't we been using this for so long? It's been around since the 70s. It comes down to price. And it's not to say that there shouldn't be cheaper toothpaste alternatives out there for consumers. I absolutely believe that, which is why I'm not anti-fluoride by any means. But also, if more people started using it, maybe the cost of it would come down and I'm sure that there's scale advantages as well. So I think that is the challenge for the industry. If for so long you've been pushing this way of cleaning your teeth, and by the way, the funny quick story on the foaming agents is they were also, I think they were put into Too Faced after fluoride was, but it was essentially they started using SLS.

As a marketing gimmick to make consumers feel like the toothpaste was working better because it's foaming and bubbling, and this must mean that it's really effective if it's bubbling in my mouth. But I tell people now that like, if your toothpaste foams as much as that does, like it's using SLS and that's actually not a good thing, so don't use that ours has a mild foaming, but not really any foaming at all, but that's intentional because foaming is bad. 

But anyway, so I think that's really the challenge for the industry is if your whole company is based on certain ingredients and a way of doing things, and it's also produced extremely high margins and anyone can look at the publicly traded companies and see what their margins are, and they're very, very high, that would be, I think, hard for Wall Street to digest is much lower margins. So it's a struggle, I think, that they'll have, but it's not to say that even since we launched, I guess, four or five years ago at this point, we've really gotten the word out there in hydroxyapatite. 

There's a lot more work to be done, but the fact that sort of I run into people and they find out I've started Risewell and they're like, oh my God, it's changed my life and hydroxyapatite. The fact that you can say it as well as you do is also pretty incredible. So I think it'll get there. And our hope is that actually in 10 years, 20 years, that we'll all be using hydroxyapatite instead of fluoride.

Ethan Peyton: Yeah, I said it 1,000 times before this episode started. Hydroxyapatite. I really practiced hard. All right, so you mentioned something about a specific marketing channel that you all have, and you didn't call it a marketing channel, that's a word I'm putting on it, but that's dentist recommendations. And this feels like something that, you know, toothpaste has that maybe some other products don't. And obviously you've got all sorts of other products out there that say like…

Kori Estrada: Okay, so you had a leg up.

Ethan Peyton: …quote unquote, doctor recommended or whatever, but not all products have the ability to say that it's X recommended or whatever. What do you feel about this marketing channel and I think you mentioned it a little bit earlier, but how are you getting more dentists to recommend your product?

Kori Estrada: Yeah, so there's a few questions rolled up into there, but I will try to answer them all. And if I forgot, just remind me. So, for us, the dental channel or marketing channel, as you call it, is extremely important. And part of that really started with my brother, Dr. Derek, who we really wanted to make sure we created a product that he could literally recommend to his patients. And he said to us in the beginning, look…

Ethan Peyton: Oh, it's all good. I believe in you.

Kori Estrada: …fluoride's been around for a while, it works, and the bar was really high. And so when we finally showed him all of the science and studies that have been done on hydroxyapatite, he was sold and he was convinced that this does in fact work as well or better than fluoride. And so I can recommend this safely to my patients and also to pregnant women and children. And so he was really excited about that. So for us, we wouldn't have created a product if it was a, again, just a MeToo product. 

So just like everything else in the market but be something that my brother couldn't recommend to his patients. So it's an incredibly important channel for us. And I think that the dentist recommendation point that you made is also important because unlike deodorant, if your deodorant doesn't work, I think most people, and I'll just put it out there, there's no natural deodorant that actually stops perspiration. It's not possible as far as I've found. But in this case, we were able to have something that's both natural and wildly effective.

But for us, we couldn't give something to dentists without all of these sort of years of research to bring to them. But unfortunately, the downside of this is that you're teaching dentists sort of a whole new way of doing things. And sadly, as my brother's kind of told us a number of times, in dental school, you spend about two minutes on oral care products. So he's been in school for eight years. He's a prosthodontist, so he had to do extra school.

But they spend very little time talking about products that consumers should be using. So with that, most dentists just assume, well, I only know one thing and that's fluoride. So in order to introduce them to a new thing, they're aware of hydroxyapatite because they know your enamel is made of that, but they're not aware that it's in products now. 

And so that's been a huge education process for us is to actually work closely with the dentist and have to walk them through all of the science and what our products are and how they're different and why it matters to use cleaner ingredients. And that's really an education process that only falls on us, unfortunately, but that's just been kind of part of what we do. And we're so passionate about, hopefully to your point earlier, really changing the paradigm of what exists and making it so that in 50 years, everyone's just using hydroxyapatite.

Ethan Peyton: So you mentioned your brother, you mentioned him a couple times that he is a dentist and it really feels like that's something that you have the advantage of, that you can lean on saying, hey, my brother's a dentist and he helped develop this product and all is good. And I think that that's really valuable and I think that talking about these kind of, quote unquote, credentials is something that a lot of entrepreneurs and it's a place where some of them get stuck because there's a lot of times when somebody has an idea for a product or they wanna start a business in X thing, but they don't have the traditional credentials to prove that they are an expert in that thing. So first off, do you feel like, have you ever been asked about your credentials, whether or not they are quote unquote sufficient based on the line of business that you're in. And if you have been asked that, how do you respond to that?

Kori Estrada: Yeah. So I've definitely been asked that before. It's funny. Sometimes when I sort of get going on the company and how we're different, a lot of times I'll get the first thing people will say is, are you a dentist? Is that how you got into this? And I obviously, and I probably should have immediately clarified that at the beginning of this podcast, that I am not a dentist at all. I was a philosophy economics major from Columbia, and I went into finance right after I graduated. So it's probably about as far from dentistry as possible. Maybe there's something further, but so yes, I am definitely not, John, you know, he was an engineer sort of by background and then also happened to go into finance. His parents were both doctors, but he's always sort of had a passion for science. 

My brother, Derek, he, he's really sort of the, the brain trust and kind of real, real dentists sort of in the operation here. But we also lean on, like I said, we have a team of dentists and doctors that we lean on heavily as well. So that's absolutely true. What I would say though is that having sort of a different angle here, I think was extremely beneficial. I, for, I guess 15 years prior to starting this, had a background in finance, largely on the investment side. I've done everything from public investing to private investing globally across all sectors. 

So I've actually looked at some of the public toothpaste companies that exist out there. And I know those businesses really well. So while I'm not a dentist per se, I actually think that coming to the table with a very different perspective and understanding good businesses versus bad businesses is something that really has been an advantage for us. But also the truth is that I think a lot of people, if you get passionate about solving a problem, which was certainly the case for us. 

We recognized there was not a product that we could buy that met the threshold of what we wanted six years ago, that we became passionate about solving that problem. And dentists are focused on fixing teeth for the most part, and they don't have the time, and my brother's overworked as it is, to think about how do I recreate products that have been used for 70-something years? But that was something that we felt as outsiders that we could do. So having, I think, that outsider perspective can be really valuable.

Ethan Peyton: I think that's a really interesting concept. It's that these businesses really kind of exist in, there's kind of a product side, which is obviously in this case, like the oral care products, the toothpaste, the whatever else. And then there's the business side. And all businesses kind of have that split. Some are obviously a little bit more intertwined than others. But do you feel like a...

And let me ask your analyst research mind this question, as opposed to your founder mind. Do you feel like there's a benefit over a, or a benefit for a business person to kind of quote unquote hire the product side, or do you think that there's an advantage to a product person kind of hiring out quote unquote again, the business side?

Kori Estrada: Yeah, it's a tough question to answer because I think I could argue either side, actually. And I think that the truth is that it takes a lot of different perspectives to start a successful business. It's not just sort of the experience that I've had that sort of led to this. I mean, I was really lucky with two other co-founders that we each brought something very different to the table. 

As I noted before, our weakness is probably that we're not marketers by nature, but that's something that you can find people who are and they can help you in that process. I think the truth is, if you have a problem that you want to solve or a company that you want to start, if you drop the ego and are able to say, I don't know something and I need help in this certain area, you can find that person.

And I think we all came to the table when we started this business. And I mean, we're literally sitting around at the table, trying to map out what's our problem and where do we find this ingredient and how do we do it? And I mean, we had never started a business before. I think, you know, John and I came from it with certainly having a desire at some point to own our own thing. So we, I think we had an entrepreneurial bug deep down. Um, but we, we all dropped the ego and said.

Ethan Peyton: Mm-hmm.

Kori Estrada: You know, what are our weaknesses? Where do we need help? What can we outsource? Um, we, I remember listening to, you know, a million different startup podcasts back in the day. Um, and, you know, doing everything we could to put ourselves in kind of that founder's role, which none of us really had experience with, um, but importantly, like in, in instances where we needed help we got the help and we do a lot of outsourcing even today on sort of helping with the R&D development side or whether it's with social media. So where we need help, we're happy to raise our hand but I think anyone is capable of doing lots of research, digging into something and I think there's sort of that Malcolm Gladwell book that talks about if you do something for 10,000 hours, like you can sort of be good at anything and.

Ethan Peyton: Mm-hmm.

Kori Estrada: That's true. We definitely spent 10,000 hours learning about toothpaste in rural care markets and all of that. And we didn't need to be a dentist in order to do that.

Ethan Peyton: Yeah, and you definitely talk the talk. It's obvious to me that you know what you're talking about. So I think that just like what you said, having that real deep research in place and being able to kind of stand on your own two feet when maybe you're talking to an investor or an advisor or something like that and not saying like, oh, I'm gonna have to go ask our scientists or something like that. Maybe if you get into the real deep stuff…

Kori Estrada: Mm-hmm.

Ethan Peyton: …you know, getting somebody that is, you know, like has done all the book learning and has the piece of paper to show it is good. But it really feels to me like you truly know, you know, maybe the 99% of the questions that you're going to be asked. And you know them in a, I don't just know what to say to get you off my back, but you know the answer is kind of rooted in the research and the science. Do you?

Kori Estrada: And that's, well, I was just going to add one quick thing on. Um, and I think your question a little while ago about sort of the difference between conventional and sort of more natural products, the, and we again, sort of sits somewhere in between because I don't think we really identify with either bucket, but it was really important to us when you are not just creating, and I kind of always use this analogy of if I'm a company and I say, oh, I want to start a new business and we're going to make another red lipstick.

Really, there's not a lot to reinvent in the red lipstick category. You're essentially going to make it look different. It'll have a different name. You might put sparkles in it or do something slightly differentiated, but you're not reinventing the wheel. When we set out to solve this problem, we kind of had to reinvent the wheel. So we had to think about it differently, but we weren't just creating a pretty package. And if you're creating a pretty package, there's not really that much you need to dig into. I mean, you need to find somebody to help with packaging. Maybe that's complicated. But in our case, I mean, it's we...

Ethan Peyton: Mm-hmm.

Kori Estrada: …because we cared about the efficacy and because we cared about it being safe enough to eat, we really, all three of us had to obsessively dig in and become as smart as possible on these things in order to create a product that's not just natural or not just a me too conventional product, but was something that we could defend when it came to having to talk to really smart dentists who have been in the industry for a long time and are like, why do I need to use this? So you're right that is really important.

Ethan Peyton: Yeah, and for the founders out there listening, or the folks who want to start a business where they don't have the quote unquote traditional expertise, I think you said something along the lines of, Dennis, get two minutes of oral hygiene products in their schooling. And so, you personally not having that background, you go read one book or whatever, and in theory, you have more knowledge than the credentialed professional does in that nature. So I think that, I think it's, just like what you're saying, it's definitely possible. You may have even an advantage because you're coming at it from a different perspective. So I really don't think that, just because you don't have the big fancy degree in a thing that you should let that stop you. Founders out there, just do it. Just do your research, know what you're talking about, and plow forward.

Kori Estrada: Totally agree.

Ethan Peyton: All right, what is your number one piece of advice for early stage entrepreneurs?

Kori Estrada: It’s to not be afraid of failing and fail quickly.

Ethan Peyton: Say more about it.

Kori Estrada: So I think that the, you know, it's a, I remember Blake Lively once sort of describing when she, sorry, Sarah, let me self-decreate, the Spanx founder, Sarah Blakely. That was a complete mix up of people, but Sarah Blakely, yeah, Sarah, I think it's, is it Sarah Blakely? Yeah, so Sarah Blakely, she has this great story from when she grew up, her household actually every night for dinner, they would sit down for dinner together and they would celebrate their failures, which I thought was an amazing thing that I will absolutely do with my kids when they're an age that they would even understand what that means, but they'll get there at some point. 

And I think that's a really great sort of a thinking when it comes to starting a business, because I think the biggest challenge that I see founders have, and frankly, we struggled with this too, is that when you are used to to perfection and things being absolutely perfect, it causes you to have indecision and take too much time and not actually learn from your mistakes fast enough. And so I think getting into that mindset of celebrating your failures and recognizing that actually it took those hundred failures to recognize that we have something great. And that actually is true of Ryswell. I mean, it took us many iterations to get to the point where we even found hydroxyapatite. 

And then once we found hydroxyapatite, how do we incorporate this in our products where it actually works the most effectively? And it took many failures to, I think it we, from idea to the actual launching of our product was at least two years of just product development. And we were just coming up with toothpaste that wasn't 100 products and launching in 100 retailers. It was selling it on a website that we had one product. That's it. So I think the embracing of failure and recognizing that failure can be actually really a good thing to lead you to where you eventually need to be is something that a lot of people struggle with, including myself.

Ethan Peyton: I think that is absolutely brilliant advice. And I think that may be a cure to the discouragement that comes with the just every day banging your head against the wall of starting a company and being a founder. That is something that I, as soon as I get off of this conversation, I'm going to write that down and I'm going to kind of ponder on how I'm going to integrate that. That is amazing advice. Thank you for that.

Kori Estrada: No, thank you.

Ethan Peyton: All right, last question, and this has been so much fun, so I'm sad to already have to wrap this up, but where can people connect with you online, and how can our listeners support Risewell?

Kori Estrada: Thank you.

Kori Estrada: So you can find us on Instagram at Risewell Co. And we're also at risewell.com. We are available at select retailers like Erawan, Credo, Nordstroms, Urban Outfitters. And then we're also available in hundreds of dentist offices as well.

Ethan Peyton: Awesome. Thank you very much for that. And just so everyone knows, we've got a discount code, Savant10, if folks go to risewell.com and use that discount code Savant10, I believe they'll save 10%, does that sound right? Hey, alrighty. So we're gonna put that in the show notes, we're gonna put everything else that we talked about, all the links, all the conversations, everything good over in the notes at startupsavant.com slash podcast. And folks, if you're looking for anything,

Kori Estrada: Yep, that's right.

Ethan Peyton: All right, Kori, thank you so much for coming on the show. I am so glad that we got to have this conversation.

Kori Estrada: Yeah, thank you so much. This is so great. I really, really appreciate it. And hopefully I didn't get two in the weeds with all the science behind toothpaste.

Ethan Peyton: The perfect amount of weeds. I think it's great.

Kori Estrada: Amazing.